‘In the wake’, as journalistic cliches go, of the Pink Chaddi campaign there’s a curious phenomenon of the Pink Chaddi campaigners finding more critics than those who went to a pub to and beat up women to get prime time attention. The latest is an article that, yawn, critiques internet activism as an echo chamber of the elite.
Since all that it does is nit-picking about online activism in India, it may not be a bad idea to do some similar frisking of the article itself.
Bullshit # 1) Nothing New About It. You write, “Revolution has a new address – cyberspace.” The internet has been used for activism in India since the age of dial-up connections. Online petitions were always around; there were message boards and Yahoo! pages when there were no blogs and social networking websites. And there was always email. One of the earliest campaigns in post-web 2.0 Indian internet space was about “The Slimes of India“. But perhaps you have to establish the newness of an old phenomenon, denying it its histories, just to find a ‘peg’ for a superficial story.
Bullshit # 2) The Straw Man of Lasting Impact. You write,
“Now, all it takes is a click of the keyboard, from the comfort of your desk. But can there be any gain without pain? Even as cyber crusaders exult over the growing—and instant—effect of their strategies, others are beginning to question whether it has any lasting impact.”
Others are not. You are. You are just calling up twenty people and putting together their quotes, like monkeys on a tree, and then arguing that there is a giant monkey. By questioning ‘lasting impact’, you set-up a straw man, because most of the campaigns you choose to cite didn’t aim at lasting impact. What are you trying to say really? That if a Pink Chaddi campaign can’t liberate Indian women forever it shouldn’t be undertaken? Can’t the same be said about your magazine? Talking of impact, how does one now how much the Pink Chaddi campaign was responsible for increasing the pressure on the Karnataka government to clamp down on V-Day? And have you by any chance heard of the Blank Noise Project? How does one evaluate the impact of a campaign like that? And about the IIPM vs. Bloggers war of 2005? Could one argue that IIPM eventually not suing bloggers was a result of the sustained campaign? And the blog blockade of 20o6?
Bullshit # 3) Stereotyping Social Networking Sites. You write,
Social networking sites, once the preserve of lonely hearts, networkers and job-hunters, are now flexing their muscles in aid of larger causes, from introducing sex education in schools to freeing Dr Binayak Sen.
A social networking site, like any other form of expression on the internet, is a piece of plain paper. Different people do different things with it. There are still more things people do on social networking sites that you missed out. Like sharing links. To this article of yours, for instance. And SNS have been used for ‘larger causes’ ever since they’ve existed. And does your tone sound as if you have something against lonely hearts, job-hunters and networkers? Haven’t you been these at some point?
Bullshit # 4) Denying Pink Chaddi its Due.
Another online group, created by Chennai-based N. Roshni and Mahesh Vee, inspired about 4,000 people from across the country to bombard Sene leader Pramod Muthalik with lovey-dovey cards this Valentine’s Day.
This is not some me-too fever raging across the country. By putting Pink Chaddi along with dozens of other campaigns you are denying it its due. If you missed how big Pink Chaddi was, how it left behind all others by miles, you were in another planet. How about a quote of Nisha Susan?
Bullshit #5) Missing the Twitters for the Woods. You write,
These campaigns were preceded by a burst of online activism in the wake of the Bombay terror attacks in November 2008 with some groups mobilising people to join in peace marches, and others creating forums for people to share their anxieties and come up with constructive suggestions.
As stated in the points above, this is not such a new phenomenon, just that you were asleep. And the high point of the online response was not the mobilisation of peace marches – we’ve been there, done that with Jessica Lal et al. The high point was the reportage of the attacks by Tweeters and how much saner it was from Indian news channels! But it’ll take you three years to discover Twitter and another three to call it elitist and lacking in long-term impact.
Bullshit #6) Exaggeration, All for a Good Quote.
Mumbai-based activist Kamayani Bali Mahabal, for example, created a Facebook group which invited members to form human chains for peace. The response was instant, and overwhelming: “People from Champaran to Chandigarh, Pune to Chennai, from every corner of the country, participated,” she says.
Firstly, activist of what? With the internet every one is an activist. And how many people in Champaran participated in this human chain? I’d like to know.
Bullshit # 7) The Mainstream Media Bogey. You write,
But one fact internet crusaders omit to mention is that campaigns like these owe a great deal of their success to other, older media—Internet penetration in India is limited to 5-8 per cent of the population, and it is the extensive coverage that newspapers and TV channels give these Net initiatives that has vastly multiplied their visibility and audience outreach.
But one fact that you ‘omit to mention’ is that that 5-8 per cent of the population is also the most that the English media’s reach stretches to! Newspapers and TV channels don’t give coverage, any coverage, to most online activism. It’s only if they make for a sexy story, and that happens rarely because you can’t be sexy all the time. Pink panties and Jessica Lal are sexy. Binayak Sen is not. If Muthalik’s med knew how to manipulate the media, inviting cameras before going in for the kill, did you ask why he didn’t send editors a thank-you note the next day? And those onine campaigns who got media support would hapily acknowledge it, if only you asked.
Bullshit #8) Another Straw Man. You write,
“A few years back, sms campaigns, as in the Jessica Lall murder case, had the same impact,” he says. But, he adds, the buzz generated by successful internet campaigns tends to be short-lived. “Interest levels seem to crash as quickly as they peak. These campaigns are not structured to maintain sustained interest. They lack the organisational skill to follow up issues thoroughly, and express lasting concern,” says Varma.
The Jessica Lal campaign used the internet just as much; and the Pink Chaddiwalas used sms too. You forget about Mandal II, another campaign that used both sms and he net. The truth rarely makes good copy, but the truth is that sms, blogs, SNS, online, offline – these are all not mutually exclusive means. The most successful campaigns all use them together. And campaigns are all undertaken for short-term goals. So why demand perpetual interest? Do you still do stories on Narmada Bachao Andolan, or for that matter the internally displaced of Kandhamal! Organisational skill? Hullo, these ‘activists’ have fulltime jobs. They do these campaigns because the media does not do them. The media only chases sexy stories.
Bullshit # 9) Denying Impact. You write,
Such criticism doesn’t dampen the enthusiasm of Bangalore-based filmmaker Ranjan Kamath, who believes that e-satyagraha has a great future. In January 2009, he floated an online petition to protest against India Inc’s support of Narendra Modi as a prime ministerial candidate. The petition, which urged people to switch off their cellphones on January 30, the 61st anniversary of Mahatma Gandhi’s death, notched up about 5,000 signatures across the country. But how many people actually switched off their phones? Brushing aside the question, Kamath asserts: “E-satyagraha is a powerful tool of political protest. It can mobilise mass movements if used effectively.”
Couldn’t you have asked him the question again? Anyway, interesting you ‘omit to mention’ that Kamath’s petition was not to switch off all cellphones but those of these companies. I thought it should have been important to mention that one of the companies has threatened to sue him for defamation. Surely, if a corporate giant the size of Tatas threatens to sue him for this, it is a measure of success for the petition? But that would take away from the larger point your story is trying to make. Which I don’t get, by now.
Bullshit #10) Just to Put In a Guha Quote. You write,
So if a Mahatma Gandhi or a Nehru had been around in the internet era, how would they have used cyberspace to mobilise the masses? Historian Ramachandra Guha laughs as he dismisses the question. “I won’t speculate about that,” he says, “but I think internet activism has not moved beyond the level of a symbolic gesture.”
Naturally, stupid question. They would obviously have used the internet. Didn’t they write letters and newspaper articles and tracts and mobilise people? Same difference. As for symbolism, the media is moved by it. Just as Muthalik wanted only one pub attacked. For symbolism.
Bullshit #11) The Echoing Chamber Argument. You write,
Media commentator Santosh Desai too strikes a cautionary note, observing that internet activism is not quite as democratising or unifying a force as its enthusiasts claim: “Online groups tend to show you a reflection of yourself,” warns Desai. “Liberals will stick to communities that express their views. Right-wingers huddle around groups that uphold their ideology. Technology makes it easier for you to listen only to voices of your own kind and shut out differing points of view.”
Why don’t you just send him a link to your magazine’s website to see all that right-wing drivel posted as comments on articles?
Bullshit #12) Third Straw Man. You write,
Exclusivity is not limited to perspectives. It is also reflected in the issues that internet campaigns choose to highlight. While an attack on pub-goers in a city triggers frenetic online activity, a rape or an ugly outburst of caste violence in a rural area is usually neglected.
Yes, when the flood comes home we panic. But as a whole the internet has much more on those un-sexy stories than your magazine or the English media in general does. Those who live in glass houses drink wine…
Bullshit #13) The Elitism Charge, via Brinda Karat. You write,
As CPI(M) leader and Rajya Sabha MP Brinda Karat, a veteran of street rallies, points out, “The number of people with internet access in India is limited. These campaigns reflect the concerns of a strata of society that has access to technology. They can never be a quick-fix substitute for real-life action.”
Critics who believe cyberspace activism is doomed by the faceless nature of the medium would agree with Karat—real mass movements are moulded in the heat and dust of the real world, with blood and sweat and fiery oratory.
Who said it could be? But the least someone with a computer and internet connection, and a few free hours can do is express outrage. And yes, they will express outrage more about things that concern them. But that’s not always true, as you said through the Pavan K Verma quote a few hundred words ago! And why compare ordinary netizens with Brinda Karat? Nisha Susan is not a politburo member. Do ordinary citizens not have the right to do something they feel strongly about without being full-time activists or politicians? If they are doing even a little, unlike you, must you always find fault with it by saying they aren’t doing enough? The internet is a social sphere which is part of “real-life action”. Otherwise Brinda Karat’s party wouldn’t have a website. And couriering chaddis and switching off phones and turning up for a human chain is very much ofline, “real-life action,” in case you didn’t notice.
Bullshit #14) Believe It Or Not – George Fernandes!
Ex- defence minister George Fernandes, a master of political agitation, scoffs at those desktop revolutionaries: “We used to bark when we saw something wrong and even bite if necessary. Nowadays, the dogs only whine.”
As if Brinda Karat was not enough, you want netizens to emulate George Fernandes! We know which tree Fernandes eventually barked, you know. Not as if nobody after George did any political agitation. So how seriously did the media take anti-SEZ struggles lately?
Sorry, now I am ranting.
KAFILA - COLLECTIVE EXPLORATIONS SINCE 2006 
hehe..somebody comment on this pls……
i remember the murder of female journalist in delhi..and how ms.dixit commented on it…the media madea hue and cry…….but was it any good?
she went on to become the chief minister the 3rd time….and was hailed by the same media.If we hear her over the past 10 years she has been the most insensitive cheif minister any body could ever dream of!!! but did all that matter!!
the middle class forms an insignificant minority in /delhi.did u read the stats, in one paper!?!
as long as you keep the prices of onion under check…u wil be voted as the chief minister..!!!
And thats all that counts…
We can only express outrage..as a vote bank we are insignificant!!
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The response in Bangalore to the attacks on women has been encouraging. Yesterday more than 500 people turned up for a ‘Take Back the Night’ event that included song, dance and political speeches attacking the right-wing govt in the state. Do try to get videos of the event… some of the protest strategies were innovative.
The day before, some 350-400 people laid seige at the DGP’s office and forced him to schedule a meeting to address their demands.
This is a great shift from the 30-odd people who turned up at MG Road the week after the Mangalore pub attacks. The Net (Facebook, etc) has played a vital role in mobilising people…
Dev
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what ispita, ranju radha and other authentic intellectuals are trying to convey reflects the real unease amongst those who are both true intellectuals and activist. And that is that we need to devise a strategy and politics that gets rids of upper caste hindu hegemony and class politics in the garb of communism. the only way this can be done is by having urbanisation, capitalism, destruction of village economy and culture. those who criticise industrialisation and urbanisation are agents of feudal and brahmanical order.
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This article today talks about the ways in which Facebook is being used all over the world as an extremely effective aid to activism.
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I have been wondering over the last few weeks, especially in the wake of the Pink Chaddi campaign, how it has managed to bring forth so much more bile than even Muthalik’s men. Class – assuming that Muthaklik’s goons were ‘proletarians’, all of them – trumps everything else, it seems. Or does it? When exactly are the poorest of the poor workers, for example, invoked by the media and the self-styled spokespersons of the ‘downtrodden’ masses? Never for their own sake but always when they need to crush some other voice. So, when you have to destroy trade unions, pit the organized working class against the unorganized, informal sector workers. This is just once instance. But you could as well say, ‘why pub-going loose women and not Binayak Sen’? As if the two are always mutually exclusive.
Gender of course, is another matter. For that is where everyone is insecure: elite men, upper caste men, working class men, communist men, dalit men, Hindu men, Muslim men…But what is interesting is the level of anxieties that it produces even among some sections of elite women (mainly radical but often those doubling up for their superiors, usually men, editors etc). This phenomenon needs greater thought and analysis.
One thing that has come up here repeatedly during and after the Pink Chaddi campaign (but also earlier) is the holier-than-thou attitude of the self-styled radicals of all hues: the accusation is that this is not only elitist, but exclusivist. ‘Where were you when blah blah blah blah..’ has been a common refrain. It is as though there is a massive burden of representation that we – all of us, supposedly elitist, not-workers, not-Dalits, not-downtrodden must carry. Notice that it does not matter if you are not either of these categories, so long as you PRETEND to be them. It is only when you are neither them nor pretend to be them that you are under serious scrutiny.
It seems to me that the main problem is this representational model of politics that still rules over our minds. What if we are not the voice of the downtrodden masses but the bad conscience of the elite themselves? What if some of us revolt not against the exploitation of the poor and the oppressed but believe that they can fight their battles themselves and that we only need to take care of the hypocrisy of our own class? And what if some of us simply desire more individual freedom to live our lives as we please? We know that there are some who can be called outright reactionaries who oppose this, as they oppose the artist’s freedom to paint what s/he wishes, and we understand that. But what do we say of radicals (class-radicals and caste-radicals) who oppose this? There is something visceral in these reactions that gives the not-very-good feeling that gender is something that ‘we’ simply cannot deal with. After all, isn’t individual freedom just another name for sexual anarchy, violation of social norms and the supreme unpredictability of the painter-artist.
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Wonderful stuff, Shivam! The vapidity of this article ends up saying much more about the mainstream media than it does about online activism.
Principally that there is almost no phenomenon of “laziness” that the English media can report on without outdoing it in laziness.
For example, Vineeta Mokkil (I was going to say VM, but that would have led to confusion) attributing these stratospheric claims to “crusaders” and “desktop revolutionaries” without a single quote from them.
I’d go on, but you did a devastating job on this.
I live in terror of a day when I will wake up, and realize I wrote some tripe like this just for the sake of a by-line in a national weekly.
(Okay, already done that — never again!)
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aditya
whatever you missed here lies the crux of the matter — Gendered reality.
the pink chaddi has shown us that mainstream feminist politics r still captured by the ethos of ‘upper’ caste women. Their elitism become the women’s issue (which we witnessd even in auto debate), other gendered voices become irrelevent, trolling and what not.
does it mean that other struggles will end? not at all. it will question mainsteam savarna feminsm and will fight it struggles against brahminical patriarchy.
pink chaddi proved that savarna women and their feminism can only think for themselves. that’s all. what radicalsim do we expect from them? that s why one could see mutually exlsuive exclusionary terrains in both sri rama sene and pink.. and both ideologically attck the emerging democratising spheres whther it be pub or education
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Owning a desktop/laptop with Internet doesn’t make us non-citizens. We as a class who pays the bills for the gargantuan government with its freebies for un-productive citizens( no its not their fault ) aren’t even expected to have a say in what matters to us. The governments and politicians in power have perfected their techniques to ignore, attack, discredit and deflect peaceful non-violent ‘on the street’ protests of the common citizenry. No we are not brave enough for lathis and guns owned by the state therefore we can’t protest using the ‘usual’ methods available to gujjars and other sectarian votebanks. Tax paying educated classes have a lot more to lose by going on the streets to protest, a broken limb or a dead protester would be a much more expensive proposition as opposed to those who have nothing to lose. Why should our non-dalit, non-downtrodden voices not have a characteristically different ring to it from the strident tones of idiotic TeeVee journalists and street fighters like Mamata and her arch enemies. And who is a journalist writing for dead tree format magazine to judge us.
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While at some level I agree with you Tarun, I’m uncomfortable with your posing Us Tax Paying Desktop Owners with the Lathi Wielding Gurjars. If us desktop revolutionaries were to come to the streets we won’t be massacred by the state the way the Gurjars were. The Gurjars had no way to be heard and had to resort to blocking a highway. For this 40 odd of them were killed in two years. I don’t think such counter-posing helps.
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Shivam,
Counterposing with an ‘identity’ of ‘tax paying desktop/laptop owners’ which doesn’t actually exist can’t help. We are not a community we are individuals who make our own choices. Do you think the threat of ‘disproportionate use of force’ doesn’t exist because educated class protests would never go that far or because of some sort of privileges enjoyed by it.
The first anti-mandal protests, the brutality of the state and eventually in-effectiveness of the long drawn out protests were the turning point in educated class disenchantment with the politics of this country. It started a long period of frustration and weariness which is only now beginning to un-ravel in the Internet era.
What do you mean by Gurjars had ‘no way of being heard’, I am sure being heard wasn’t a problem with the massive votebank they can shepherd. Having the representative government bend over backward to their narrow and incorrect worldview where permanent jobs without regard to individual’s ability to perform these competently as a way to uplift a ‘community’ was a bigger problem.
1. Identifying with the community. Us vs them. What does a gurjar owning 10s of acres of land and family members in government jobs have in common with the other gurjars. But the privileged ones nevertheless joined in the fun
2. Destruction of private property. Choking off NCR, collateral damage of lost daily wage jobs, blocking our economic lifelines and even food/essential supplies. Ends do not justify foul means.
3. We paid taxes to help create those government jobs. And the way these ‘public servants’ from whichever ‘caste’ or ‘quota’ treat us tax paying citizens is at some level due to the sense of entitlement felt by them after similar ‘struggles’. Just because peoples have existed in large number on the land doesn’t automatically entitle them to jobs for their ‘community members’ which they don’t deserve. This only helps furthers the nepotism that is so prevalent all around us. Merit is not as evil as it is made out to be.
4. 40 odd of them killed were combatants in a war, in which many were recruited with the threat of communal excommunication.
The individuals who got killed made their choices based on incentives/disincentives they thought to be relevant. Choices lead to consequences. One can go and assault the armed policemen trying to keep a highway open and get killed in the process. It doesn’t matter if individuals wield lathis or laptops the net result would always be the same for similar set of choices made.
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thanks Tarun , exactly my point.tax payers cannot and should not be taken for granted.Tax the middle class… but policies should always benefit the aam admi!! Nope.
btw..are there any policies for the jobless in the metro cities..?People are loosing jobs, calls centers are being shut down….Why no schemes for them?
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Ipsita, as I wrote on an earlier post, contrary to popular middle class perception that the the taxes they pay subsidize the poor, the bulk of tax revenue in India comes from indirect taxes, not from income tax. Indirect taxes amount to 82 per cent of total taxes and direct taxes account for only 18 per cent. This means that the government gets most of its tax revenues not from income tax paid by people with regular incomes but from sales taxes levied on all sorts of basic consumable items like salt, atta and rice to luxury items. It is a well established fact that indirect taxes lead to a disproportionate part of the burden of taxation falling on poorer households, rather than the middle classes. To put it crudely, every time a domestic servant buys atta and salt for her family’s evening meal, she contributes to the government coffers that subsidize the IITs your children go to, and to which hers can never aspire.
As for job schemes for those laid off from call centres and airlines – their situation is grim, but however grim, would they ever like to avail of NREGA type government schemes, which guarantees 100 days of work per year for one member each per family, that work being breaking stones and building roads? This, regardless of the traditional artisanal or other modern skills they may possess.
I do not celebrate people losing incomes, whether from loss of white-collar jobs or from their land being seized for corporations. The point is that when the government dismantles state support for the poor (education, health etc.) and throws them at the mercies of the market, this is seen by the elites as a healthy move towards streamlining a flabby economy. When the elites face the brunt of the same market, they run to the government crying “mamma!” You cant have it both ways. If the market is God, obey Him!
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Thank you for your post, Nivedita.
I would have like Ipsita to be aware of how little she actually pays exclusively for all that comes back to her.
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Nivedita,
“It is a well established fact that indirect taxes lead to a disproportionate part of the burden of taxation falling on poorer households, rather than the middle classes”
Where did you get your numbers from.
“In fact, in 2007-8, the direct tax collection for the first time surpassed the indirect collection.”
Now inflation is quite another thing, it hurts all hardworking people equally.
Lets put things in perspective. Food and public transport (diesal) are heavily subsidized for the poor( poor being different from caste/religion or self-proclaimed downtrodden which are basically pressure groups hankering freebies they don’t deserve ). They may pay some tax on salt but definitely there is no tax on food, only subsidies. Its the salaried educated classes again who pay for the bulk of indirect taxes from gasoline, entertainment, service tax on telecom and so on. Try to figure out the share of indirect taxes paid for by the 90% non-income tax payee families in India. You’ll also find that the same set of people (who should have been paying income tax in the first place ) are either the ones who also steal sales/excise and other taxes, wherever they can or are too poor to spend a lot on consumer goods on which indirect taxes are levied.
I am not sure if I have made any choice where my maid paying is paying for the IIT in which my son/daughter should go to one day. You can’t have it both ways first making the government acquire land for education/healthcare from poor farmers, not allow private players to exist on a level playing field(they need to pay market rates for land right) while controlling their own destiny(higher or primary education is a not for profit sector for most part in India) and then blame the educated classes for making the maid pay for the IITs. So if you opposing free market in education sector why blame the educated classes for making do with what they got.
Elites as in crony capitalists who depend on distorting the free market by hacking the regulations are not equal to honest educated classes, bailouts are evil period no matter who asks for it. Who exactly in the salaried educated classes who has been laid off has asked for a government bailout ?
Also when you simply argue for more government support for poor, you must learn what is a public good by an economist’s definition where the government should involve itself in and where else better regulation and un-distorted free market would perform better than a bloated bureaucracy that operates at 15% output(Source: Late Rajiv Gandhi’s speeches).
All this debate about government creating jobs and providing free education and healthcare as a ‘public’ good to be dangled in front of an illiterate votebank through means of reservations is what has lead to the un-raveling of our democracy. It is being manifested itself into sectarian protests by patriarchal rural societies set in medieval ways.
I wouldn’t be surprised if educated classes decide one fine day once their numbers have grown sufficiently through economic growth ( drawn from the erstwhile poor) , that since all economic power comes from them rather than the elites or rural/urban poor they might as well do away with the in-convenience of universal franchise and form a Musharraf version of democracy of graduates or some other criteria that excludes the gullible masses.
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Tarun, the sentence you quote from the Money Today article makes it clear that in 2007-8 for the very first time, it seems that direct tax collection may have overtaken indirect tax collection in India. For the first time. Which means that the argument I made stands for the six plus decades preceding 2007-8. It’s one thing to point out that something may have changed in 2007-8, quite another to wave it around gleefully with “where do you get your facts from”. A little desperate, that looks.
Also, it is interesting that this trend has come about precisely now, at a time when government spending on the social sector has reduced drastically from the previous five decades. I would also like to understand more about how this transformation came about. I have a doubt here, and would welcome clarification from anyone – I do know that from last year or the year before, declaring of income became compulsory for everyone, including those well below taxation levels, the idea being they would get a refund later on. Is the intake mentioned here the gross intake, before refunds were handed out? Would this factor make a significant difference? Perhaps not, just speculating.
The sentence you quote from my piece (on the disproportionate burden that indirect taxes place on poorer households) stands: to quote the same Money Today article, “Whether you earn Rs 10,000 a month or Rs 10 lakh, you’re still going to pay that 24% tax on a tube of toothpaste. ” Precisely. In addition do note also that when budgets reduce excise duties, it is from luxury items rather than from items of mass consumption – airconditioners become cheaper, soaps and toothpastes more expensive.
Then you make the following points:
a) “the poor are basically pressure groups hankering freebies they dont deserve”
b)”The 90% non-income tax payee families in India…are also the same set of people who also steal sales/excise and other taxes”
The first is your opinion, the second based on no evidence at all but the prejudice you display in point a)
As for the following diatribe:
“You can’t have it both ways first making the government acquire land for education/healthcare from poor farmers, not allow private players to exist on a level playing field(they need to pay market rates for land right) while controlling their own destiny(higher or primary education is a not for profit sector for most part in India) and then blame the educated classes for making the maid pay for the IITs. So if you opposing free market in education sector why blame the educated classes for making do with what they got.”
Hello, what the….???
a) making the government acquire land for education/healthcare from poor farmers – who MAKES the govt acquire land – the poor? And the land is acquired for education and healthcare? Where? For whom – the poor? What are you talking about?
b) “private players have to buy land at market rates, right?” Wrong. That’s precisely what the govt acquires land cheaply for, so that private players (Tatas, Reliance) do NOT have to pay market rates, which they would have to, if they bought land directly from the farmers.
We dont have the time or space here to go into your confusion over “public good”, a highly contentious term, in which there is not one “economist’s definition” as you seem to think, but many and varying views.
But the bottom line is this – you believe that the economically well-off are simply more deserving, not merely fortunate to have been born into the right families; that the strings they pull and the relatives they get to run their businesses while shrieking about “merit” and free competition are what democracy is about; that in short, the “educated classes”, having already hogged most of the available resources, by that very token now have a greater moral right to more and more.
What can I say? Fundamental, rock-bottom disagreements, Tarun!
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education a not-for-profit sector? i have serious doubts about this. and whom does that benefit anyway? private schools and colleges (and hospitals) get land at token rates from the government on the condition that they will set aside a certain percentage of seats (or hospital beds) for the economically weaker sections. but till date none of them in any city have actually fulfilled their requirement. in fact the biggest support for this elitist attitude of the schools is the middle class who do not want their children to share classroom space with the poor.
i am of the opinion that if education were to really become privatised in india and the government were to remove all subsidies with a provision that fees will be linked to income, it will be the middle classes which will hurt the most. this is not an argument for privatising education, but to point out that the self pity of the middle class as the most wronged while being the most loyal citizenry is nauseating and has no basis.
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Nivedita,
Thanks for responding to my comments. Sure its always good to question assumed data based on ‘prejudices’. I’ll concede the point about 90% of the non-income taxpayers being willing to steal taxes ( while it may or may not be true ) . It doesn’t have a lot of bearing on my arguments against the current system of adhoc bribery for sectarian votebanks, big government spends and crippling of the free market.
The largest proportion of direct taxes+indirect taxes is paid for by the educated classes.
1. From a very small sample size of people I speak to(drivers, cooks, government employees, carpenters, plumbers and so on ). Every sample size in India is small, 5 or 5000 , representative sample is what matters . Amongst families with an expenditure of < Rs. 10000 a month. Does a significant part of it constitutes paying for goods and services with indirect taxes. Say food(no indirect taxes) , Telecom ( yes service tax, see average ARPU in this segment is mostly equal to minimal recharge required to keep the incoming on ), education for kids ( no indirect taxes), healthcare for aged parents( no indirect taxes ). Liquor ( heavily taxed). Conclusion: for reducing indirect tax burden on the low income groups reduce taxes on alcoholic beverages. Promoting in-effective nanny state public policy through taxation is a bad idea anyway.
2. The non-income tax paying groups pay 24% aggregate taxes for toothpaste and import duty for Palm oil they use. What is the impact in terms of absolute contribution to the exchequer. So what helps them more a big in-efficient government into healthcare, education and other competitive goods (hence non-public ) or a small efficient government that leaves more spending power in the hands of the poorest to be able to make their own decisions and control their own destiny.
3. Share of indirect taxes during the past 5 decades. So are we discussing the past ( how about mughal period where farmers were the major source of tax revenue )
No it doesn’t really matter what the governments did in the past 5 decades. You can’t go back to the past even for argument sake.
3a. “at a time when government spending on the social sector has reduced drastically from the previous five decades”
Oh yes, free electricity, multiple farm loan waiver schemes, free irrigation, free color televisions, subsidized meals… the list of direct bribery on offer is un-abated . There are multiple rural employment schemes(all in-effective ofcourse). Where exactly have you been to. Please give me a government which as a most in-efficient user of money spends less money through its bloated bureaucracy. Living in la la land are you ?.
4. The land is acquired in the name of public purpose(the janata janardan, the poor masses), that the public purpose can be distorted by the government is sad, if you can’t blame the poor in whose name this is being done, how come you blame the educated classes. 15000 or so seats in IITs and NITs annually out of which about say 40% are reserved (considering IITs had lesser percantage reserved) is about as much that the government pays from the exchequer for the education for the educated classes. This is indeed a very small number against half a million technical graduates India produces each year in self-funded but recognized private institutions. And it won’t be a big tragedy if government disinvested from these institutions for a huge profit to the for profit private players(with clean books as opposed to the registered non-profits with two sets of books) and let them do away with reservations. Infact everyone would end up happier. The educated classes who can use the loans, the poorer sections for whom a massive student loan corpus ( to be paid back when they can move up their way through the system) can be provided for by selling these institutions. Hell when are in the largest market of education lovers in the whole world, there would be no dearth of education providers even for the weakest economic sections of society who would be able to pay for it with the reduced indirect taxes and buoyancy in income growth as a result of reduced taxes. So yes if students of universities imparting non-useful education not required in research/academia or industry aren’t able to pay back, the free market would shut them down. A particular left leaning university in Delhi comes to my mind.
5.
a) “the poor are basically pressure groups hankering freebies they dont deserve”
“you believe that the economically well-off are simply more deserving, not merely fortunate to have been born into the right ”
Poor does not equal ‘un-productive citizens hankering after freebies’ which also includes government servants, a fairly large percentage of NGO sector.
You are putting words into my mouth right and arguing against it
Defending the educated classes doesn’t mean I am saying the poor are lazy and deserve their fate. The fact that a huge percentage of population in India has been ‘uplifted’ over the past few years without substantial government support due to free market reforms leading to job creation in the private sector is the biggest argument in favor of less intervention from the government. The system of favors for voters based on their caste, religion or sectarian nature is an anathema and has to go. The poor deserve the economic reforms as much as the educated classes. The system of quotas, gigantic government expenditure ( and resulting inflation and high indirect taxes ) hurts them more in absolute terms than it hurts the educated classes.
6. How many colleges give admissions on the basis of strings pulled and not some competitive exams. How many software and IT services company’s hire because of strings pulled. Haven’t seen that happening in campus placements happening all over India.
7. Private Players not equals private education sector players ( who don’t exist yet ). What is seen as private education is actually run by registered non-profit societies. Arguing that not for profit societies conducting education in the shabby manner they are to deride a free market in education is what was the term used by you ? desperation….
8. Confused am I about definition of a public good ? Sure in this country where cricket feeds to doordarshan in violation of commercial contracts are ‘public purpose’ one could be forgiven for being so confused.
9. “having already hogged most of the available resources, by that very token now have a greater moral right to more and more.”
Scarcity mindset. The cost of environmental legislation and preservation can only be borne by the educated classes. We don’t slash and burn forests, burn wood to reduce air quality , if there was a free market in pubic transport we would happily go ride them, if there was a free market in education sector we’ll happily choose and pay with educational loans the best educational institutions and surpass the government owned one’s, if free market in broadband is allowed to exist instead of the current system of rent seeking and universal service obligation funds we would happily stop commuting to offices daily and stop burning the fossil fuels, if the electic grids in India were operational by making farmers pay for real cost of electricity we would happily invest into wind and solar power to the grid instead of our inverters and help reduce the cost of power generation, we the believers in free market merely respond to the skewed incentives provided by distorted marketplaces created because you leftists have influenced government policies for decades.
Less than 1.75% of India’s land area is required to provide a 1000 sq. ft. flat for every family in India. Enable right to property, provide better regulation to un-distort the property marketplace by providing urban zoning and title search data , reduce transaction fees (registration stamp duty ) and the crony capitalism of public announcements of infrastructure projects followed by realty project announcements by private players with a wide range of in-efficiencies due to middlemen and con-men involved would melt away. Are the educated classes happy to be slaves of banks paying up homeloans for next 20-25 years of their productive life spans. Given a choice from a truly free market, more efficient realty players might even spring up for currently low income groups.
“Why exactly do you hate us again ?” Is it because we have started to use the Internet to voice our protests against in-justices meted out to us.
Janaki,
How do you expect governmental intervention into education and healthcare which has repeatedly failed us since 5 decades both in the form of direct creation of educational and health facilities and also by way of subsidized land and grants/aid to not-for-profit registered societies.
You have a right to your opinion however misguided.
The educated class ( what’s middle class ) is not wallowing in self pity but their complaints have a solid ground to stand on. And haven’t the educated classes been mute and loyal citizens of the state, you see any evidence to the contrary ?. When was the last time the educated classes demanded a taliban state out of Indian lands ? When was the last time educated classes asked for a comprehensive ‘sons/daughters of the class’ reservation policy to perpetually perpetuate their exalted existence beyond their proverbial seven generations ?
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@ Tarun
“We as a class who pays the bills for the gargantuan government with its freebies for un-productive citizens”
a. Who is this “we”?
b. and pray who are these un-productive citizens ?
But till then …let me assume… .
– .”We” means you are talking about well-educated, entrepreneur/ working in the pvt sector people. Certainly “we” are not government servants here neither are semi skilled workers as they enjoy some or the other freebies.
– Freebies are different kind of subsidies given to the poor like rations at subsidized rates, may be you will include schemes like NREGA, JRY, IAY also here. Above all reading your later posts you include reservations also in the list. So according to you the recipients of such policies are unproductive people.
Nothing much to say here except that I will love to see you to exchange your positions with those who, in your opinion, are enjoying freebies and are un-productive.
– What about throwing you in a choked Delhi sever line to clean that and let you check how unproductive your efforts are?
– Also distributing electricity, water, telephone lines, roads, schools, etc equally in every nook and corner of the country. Given the limited infrastructure, I will be very happy that if there is some kind of rationing of all such goods and each citizen of the country gets equal amount unlike the disproportionate usurpation by people living in metros. Let Delhi/Bangalore get same amount of electricity, water that most of the villages in India get. Then only you will realize how privileged we are as compared to ‘those’ un-productive classes.
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“No we are not brave enough for lathis and guns owned by the state therefore we can’t protest using the ‘usual’ methods available to gujjars and other sectarian vote-banks”
– Reading it, I am getting little more clarity on your definition of “we”. By “we”, you mean ‘upper’ caste, well-educated, professional, entrepreneur/ working in the pvt sector people.
Now I am really interested to know about your views on ‘upper’ caste medical students sabotaging the entire government medical services for more than 20 days in Delhi opposing the reservations. Few hundred students blackmailed the whole country by doing so and if you visit these hospitals now, you will realize how many people might have lost their lives due to their strike. They were termed as young heroes redeeming and reclaiming the country from dirty politicians. There were one clear cut gainers during that strike and they were big pvt hospitals who in fact funded the whole ‘event’.
The blackmailing was successful as the government had to postpone the provisions and also increase the number of seats for “general” category. In those 20 days no police fired on these students who were instrumental in so many deaths that might have occurred due to their strike. No body in the media asked this question.
The same government whom you accuse of providing freebies is in fact sat on the Mandal report for more than a decade, allows non-implementation of SC/ST reservation in all spheres, don’t punish the perpetrators of atrocities on SC/STs, has no guts about implementing reservation/diversity in private sector, refuses to tackle untouchability and discrimination with Dalits, takes away land and other natural resources forcibly in the name of national development
Do you know why this is so? Because of the only vote bank that actually exists in this country and that is the “upper” caste vote bank and the disproportionate power they exerts on others through their hegemony on government bureaucracy, academia, media and economy.
And this is the precise reason why the “we” you are talking don’t come on streets and get killed rather they protests in the lawns of AIIMS sitting under 5 star tents with water sprinkling coolers and bisleri and kill patients.
The day ‘we’s vote bank and its power becomes ineffective we will see lot of violence from the “we” you are talking about. I am hundred percent sure about that.
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before i forget or get tired let me add quickly…
i have heard that the epitome of “upper” caste merit.. INFOSYS got land 1 Rs per acre and tax holiday for 15 years…
I have also heard that they are after the government for extending the tax-holiday for 15 more years as they say that they wont remain competitive otherwise.
Also they now have another excuse ” RECESSION”
I am wondering that even after enjoying 15 years of uninterrupted freebies from the government the most meritorious class/caste of Indians are not able to compete in the free market and need crutches..
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Does anyone in this discussion even remember what the post was about? Is it sheer coincidence that whenever – and I mean EVERY SINGLE TIME – feminist politics has been raised in this forum, it rapidly gets swirled away into a miasma of class or caste? Equally coincidentally, the reverse never happens – although gender is formative of every single other identity, posts about caste remain about caste, class about class, nation-state politics about that only!
Although I have been arguing the opposite for some time now, I’m beginning to wonder if gender may still be the most subversive and dangerous of all, the final frontier, as ’80s feminists believed.
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Ranju Radha
I am holding open the possibility that PC campaign was exclusionary in a way that a Dalit Bahujan feminist campaign would not be. Now can you please walk me towards a conclusion?
For that statement to be true, we need
1) a comparable Dalit Bahujan Feminist campaign which was NOT exclusionary. Can you think of any?
OR
2) some sort of analysis of the specific actions of the PC campaigners or their supporters to show that they were exclusionary.
OR
3) some theory of ideology/consciousness grounded in dalit bahujan feminist praxis that allows us to see how PC campaigner’ imaginations are firmly attached to exclusionary practices even though in particular instances the exclusions may not be very apparent.
From what I gather, there is general agreement among kafila posters that antireservatoin campaign is bad and anyone who participated in it should be condemned.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that if someone sent a PC to Muttalik, she or he must have also participated in the antireservation campaign. And therefore they are exclusionary!
You may be right. But it is well nigh impossible for for me to follow through with that sort of logic. For me to agree with what you are saying would require at best a pretty hazardous leap of imagination – which aids little more than a sloppy attempt to use the PC campaign as a foil to beat up antireservationist women. At worst, it is a trollish gambit because it stakes out a claim with no intention of substantiating it.
Let me restate it. Yes, you could be entirely correct. But in effect what you are telling your readers is this: “you cannot understand what I am saying if you dont have or cannot grow the Dalit Bahujan native intuition. And I dont care. ”
Well, if you dont care whether or not your reader appreciates what you are saying, you are either addressing the wrong readers or the purpose of your writing is something other than being understood. In either case should you be surprised at unappreciative responses from your readers ?
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This thread is now closed.
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